[[ the following was posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk/m in four parts, by Cecil Jones. I have done minor editing to combine the parts into one article. Deanie Richards deanie@acorn.net ]] ======================================================== From: "Cecil N. Jones" <102454.1677@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy.jfk.moderated Subject: November 1996 in Dallas Date: 10 Dec 1996 05:11:07 I attended the JFK Lancer "November in Dallas" meeting November 22-24. What follows is my report of the sessions I attended. I tried to merely state what I heard the speakers say, without including my opinion, or any reference as to how I feel about any particular issue. However, I have made some comments, denoted by square brackets [ ...] First, I'd like to say that Debra Conway and JFK Lancer did a great job of organizing and then managing the conference. This was basically my first such conference (I went to ASK 94, but did not register or attend any sessions, just bought some books and took the bus tour), so I don't have much to compare it to, but I enjoyed it immensely, and offer my congratulations to the hosts and sponsors. I would also like to say that even though COPA was holding some meetings at the same time, no invitation from COPA was made to the JFK Lancer attendees, even though all attendees and speakers at COPA were invited to join in the Lancer festivities. JFK Lancer has been advertising and announcing their intentions to hold this conference for over a year. It seems to me that COPA, even though they hold their main meetings in Washington, D.C., just couldn't let the anniversary pass without holding a conflicting meeting in Dallas. I would have liked to have heard and seen some of the COPA presentations, but didn't have the opportunity. It would have been nice, and would still be nice in the future, to have only one meeting going on at the same time. Such a mess. And it only perpetuates the petty rivalries that have gone on in the research community for such a long time. I think COPA blundered by butting in at the last minute, trying to spoil someone else's show. Just my opinion. I was not able to attend all of the meeting. I drove up to Dallas from Houston on Friday morning, the 22nd (I had ticketes to the Rockets Thursday night!), picked up my registration packet, and looked around the books and stuff available for sale. Craig Roberts was there selling and autographing copies of "Kill Zone". He had a Mannlicher Carcano on the table, just like the one found in the TSBD, scope and all. He let me handle it and work the bolt. I noted two things: 1) it was heavy, and 2) the iron sights could have easily been used since the scope is off to the left side (now, hold on, I didn't say I thought LHO used the iron sights, I just noted that it could have been done). I bought a copy of "Pictures of the Pain", and subscribed to the JFK Lancer "Assassination Chronicles". There was a large group of college students from something called Project JFK, in Kansas. Approx. 200 people registered, with 65 signed up for the Sunday bus tour. ---------------------------- The first session I attended was the Zapruder Film Symposium. There has already been some discussion about this on the newsgroups. Here's what I heard: There was an "invitation only" 10 hour session on Thursday to examine the evidence that there may have been "tampering" with the Zapruder film. Attending this session were David Mantik, Jim Fetzer, Jack White, David Lifton, Chuck Marler, Noel Twyman, Martin Shackelford, Ray Shafer, and two others I just got the last names - Morningstar and Hepler. Dr. Mantik had requested the workshop, since he has discovered what he deems to be tampering. The results of this workshop were presented Friday afternoon, from 2:00 - 7:00 PM. *Jim Fetzer* First up was Jim Fetzer, a philosophy professor. He talked about the notion of "inference to the best explanation", which is kinda like Lifton's notion of "best evidence". Look at the explanations and then pick the best one. (BTW, Fetzer noted that Josiah Thompsen, author of SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS, is now a private investigator.) Fetzer stated that the panel would show that there was Secret Service complicity in the assassination, using more than just the Z film. For instance: 1. Greer washed the interior of the limo at Parkland 2. Altgens photo shows "hole" in the windshield, but SS photo shows no hole 3. SS had possession of the xrays (Mantik has "discovered" xray fakery, such as the "patch" over the hole in the back of JFK's head) 4. Robertson says photos and drawings of brain do not show damage to cerebellum (doctors said they saw cerebellum), therefore photos and drawings are fake. 5. If the Z film was actually filmed at 24 fps instead of 18 fps, then there could be more than 100 frames missing. *Jack White* Jack White was next. He shared many of his slides of the Z film. Here are some of his points: 1. Connally's "turn to the left" is not in the Z-film 2. There is no blood on JBC's cuff, even though his wrist has been shot 3. Zapruder's field of view decreases just before the headshot 4. In some frames the limo is in perfeect focus, while Moorman and Hill are blurred. 5. Quite a few spectators on the north curb of Elm, just before the Stemmons sign, do not appear to move a muscle for 13.5 seconds (Jack says this indicates repeated frames). 6. Z-film doesn't show the limo stopping as noted by several witnesses 7. Brenemen, an assistant surveyor says he saw an early version of the Z film (according to Marrs), and that he saw "blobs" [brain matter?] going backwards. *Chuck Marler* Next was Chuck Marler of CTKA. He focused on the FBI and WC re-enactments: 1. CE585, a survey map of DP used in March 1964, shows the location of the limo at each shot. It does not show a shot at 313, but later. 2. CE882 is a later survey of DP, May 1964. 3. There were three different surveys used in the re-enactments [to locate witnesses, compute distances, and to try to position the limo at the time of each shot, etc.]. The first was Nov. 1963 for Life Magazine, then the March 1964 for the SS, and May 1964 for the FBI/WC. 4. Two of these surveys appear to have been altered, showing the limo locations at different places. The altered locations coincide with the 2 known splices in the film. *Noel Twyman* Next was Noel Twyman, who discussed apparent "rapid" movements of Greer's head, which are not physically possible. He says Greer turned his head in one frame (303). Therefore frames have been taken out. Also, the limo appears stopped in 303, since it and the backgound are in clear focus, and the limo could not have stopped in one frame. *David Lifton* David Lifton was next with a history of the chain of possession of the Zapruder film. [I must say that David Lifton was the highlight of the conference for me. He has so much knowledge of the case, has seen so many documents, and interviewed so many witnesses first hand. He is fascinating to listen to. 1. Three copies of the original were made in Dallas, two copies going to the SS, and the original and the third copy going to Life. 2. During the course of Lifton's attempt to see the film, he made a phony offer to buy it from Life for a million dollars. Life brought a 35mm copy to California for Lifton to look at jon June 22, 1970. He says this is the copy that the Medio CD-ROM contains. 3. He noted a splice at 155 4. He was curious about the black blob at the back of the head 5. He says that Zapruder's 16mm film was not split down the middle like you normally would to produce an 8mm copy. This allows it to be put in an optical printer. 6. He says the Z film doesn't show the limo stopping, therefore frames removed 7. He later saw another 35mm film in New York in Groden's possession, made from a special system to go directly from 16mm to 35mm. Weisman (Weitzman?) had done this for Life. This version was used in the move JFK. 8. Mo Weisman at EFX did this for Life for other assassination films also, and kept a set of negatives. 9. During the making of the movie "Executive Action" (1973) Weisman wanted to do the same for the Nix film, but couldn't get a copy of it from Groden. 10. Groden was apparently getting his films from EFX, where he worked. 11. CIA got a copy of the Z film and sent it to NPIC 12. In 1979 Lifton saw the autopsy photos at Groden's house. Groden apparently got them when he was working with the HSCA. Livingstone got them and tried to sell them. 13. Lifton got his autopsy photos from retired SS agent Fox. These were black and white. 14. Groden/Livingstone photos were color, but poorer quality. 15. Lifton tried to trade the Fox autopsy photos to Groden for the Z film. Groden said no. 16. Lifton finally bought a copy of the film from Groden for $5000. Groden denies this, but Lifton showed the cancelled check. The copy Lifton got was a magnetic transfer [video?]. Lifton also gave Groden a copy of the Fox photos, which Groden subsequently sold to GLOBE for $50,000. 17. Lifton finally got access to a 35mm copy from Richter (sp?) who also worked for Weisman. 18. The Nix film has disappeared. The HSCA had it at one time. The original is gone. Thinks Groden may have it. 19. Lifton thinks that Groden gave the AARB/NA a copy of the Z film and kept the origninal SS film. *Dr. David Mantik* Next was Dr. David Mantik. He showed several reasons why he thinks the Z-film has been tampered with. 1. noticed Zapruder had a problem centering JFK in frames near 313 (no foreground). 2. perhaps this was to remove any markers (lampposts, spectators, etc.), which would help hide any removal of frames. 3. but how would you fill in the "top" of the frame? 4. by magnification of the background. 5. Stemmon sign increases in magnification versus the background at 212 (after the splice). 6. Zapruder testified, and study of known objects shows, that he never changed his zoom. 7. but at 216, magnification of background objects increases (tree), then at 253 (holes in wall), lamppost at 260, 280. 8. distance from Jean Hill to Brehm in 287. 9. Mantik showed a graph which plotted magnification vs. frame number. Magnification starts going up at 300 and increase to a maximum of 1.6 at 315, which is the spot where the foreground goes away, as mentioned in 1 above. 10. white spot on grass near location of headshot - it was used [by WC?] to calculate the speed of the limo. 11. but the Nov. 29 issue of Life [black and white] doesn't show the white spot. [note: as already pointed out by Joe Riley, the B/W Life photos have very different contrast. Mantik says that the white spot is not shown on any other photos, only the Z film. However, I have found it very clearly evident in the Bothun #4 photo published on page 156 of Pictures of the Pain.] Next Mantik talks about the head snap issue. 1. no witnesses reported the head snap. 2. no "early" viewers of the Z film, such as Dan Rather, reported it. 3. only Lattimer was able to get a head snap with FMJ bullets (jet effect). 4. Mantik doesn't think the headsnap is due to a frontal shot, but due to missing frames. 5. spray of blood and brain only shows on 1 or 2 frames, should show for a longer time. Speed of limo, based mainly on blur analysis: 1. Moorman shows limo going very slow, due to blur of motorcycle cops 2. Muchmore shows limo going faster at 299, then slower at 317 3. Flag on left bumper at Moorman stops blowing due to reduction in limo speed 4. brake light is on in Muchmore for at least 9 consecutive frames 5. frames 322-335 in Muchmore don't show what the Z film shows with respect to JFK's posture. 6. Moorman photo was taken about 317-319, 45 seconds after the headshot. 7. Hypothesis: 2 head shots, from rear at 312-313, from front several seconds later. *David Lifton* David Lifton was next. His topic was The JFK Case As We Approach The Millenium. Again, even though much of this was rambling and reflecting, I enjoyed it very much. We finally quit for the night around 11:30 PM. Lifton is working a book about Oswald. He didn't say much about it, except that one aspect he is working on is how did LHO happen to be where he was on Nov. 22, 1963, in the TSBD, on the motorcade route. He didn't say when the book would be out. He noted that there is still lots of internal disagreement about the case. That our lives (the researchers and others) have become enmeshed in the data of the case. He talked about the Lawyer vs. Scientist approach. He noted that he is the same age as LHO. Other points: 1. JFK and LBJ were so different, changing one for the other would have a dramatic effect on the upcoming events. 2. He talked about some unpublished research he did in 1967 concerning Connally. 3. JBC's chest surgery started at 1:38 PM (wonders why they waited so long), the wrist surgery was started a little after 4, the thigh surgery at 4:20. 4. Dr. Shaw talks about a bullet in the leg. 5. Talks about the problem related to which side of the wrist was the entry wound and which side was the exit wound. If you go by the doctor's description, it requires that JBC's wrist be in a strange position, with the top of the wrist parallel to his body, the bullet exiting the bottom. 6. 10cm of his rib was missing, but the surrounding muscles were intact. The ribs were pushed inward. 7. The nurse, Doris ????? said the chest wound was a shot from the front. 8. Another nurse, Audrey Bell, overheard JBC in a muted conversation with someone just before his surgery. Then JBC made the statement that he was shot from behind, "I think". Lifton is still into his body alteration scenario, and is trying to update the info in Best Evidence as new data fromt he files is made available: 1. He feels that there was a plan to recover the bullets from JFK's body in Dallas. 2. Shooting JBC was unplanned and caused some problems. 3. JBC's book mentions a bullet falling out on the floor of the operatin room. [I looked through JBC's autobiography "In History's Shadow" and could not find a reference to this]. 4. He knows more information about this but can't reveal it at this time. General comments: 1. Lifton believes all shots came from the front, and the plan was to alter the wounds during the autopsy, but it was supposed to happen in Dallas. 2. LHO was a patsy, fired no shots. 3. LHO was good at fooling people as to what he was. 4. LHO was a socialist, but not a revolutionary (Marxist). 5. LHO was very intelligent. 6. Lifton says Posner should produce the tapes of his interviews with the doctors. More on Body Alteration scenario: 1. He has discovered that there was a possible opportunity to remove the casket from AF1 at 2:14PM. This is based on the Stoughton photo of the casket being loaded into AF1, up the stairs, at Love Field. Roy Kellerman is the man at the front of the casket, he enters AF1 first. JBK is farther down the stairs, and would not enter AF1 until later. So, it is possible that the body could have been quickly taken from the casket before she got on board. He thinks the body was transferred to AF2 [he didn't say how this would have been done]. Since AF2 did not take off until 3:14 PM, they had an hour to start on any body alteration. 2. Lifton thinks Kellerman was involved. He was the ASAIC, the assistant special agent in charge, for the trip. There are only two ASAIC's in the SS, so he was a big dog. 3. Kellerman had 2 of his men physically kick the FBI out of the emergency room. 4. He took the body out of Dallas 5. He carried the casket onto the plane, so he had to know if the body was removed from the casket once it got on board the plane. 6. The casket was empty on arrival in Washington. 7. Burkley had blood on his sleeves at the swearing in on AF1. 8. Swearing in had to wait for LBJ to change his shirt. 9. Kellerman was the one who took the autopsy film 10. Kellerman produced the piece of missing skull. *More on Mantik and Lifton Presentations* Both were on the panel that studied the Zapruder film. One more thing to note about Mantik's presentation: Mantik used the testimony of the SS agents to validate his claim that the headsnap was not real. When Lifton got up, he mentioned that this was one place of disagreement. Since Lifton thinks that the SS were involved in the assassination, he would not advise using their testimony to confirm any conspiracy theories. Looking at my notes, I think I'll mention some thoughts that I had jotted down while waiting for the next session. They are not original thoughts in the sense that the same kind of remarks have been made before. But they were my thoughts at the time, and they follow on from the example in the previous paragraph. It is interesting that one person's theory often conflicts with another. This is symptomatic of the whole case, at least for those who favor conspiracy theories. It makes it difficult to come up with a "coherent" conspiracy theory, as John Locke might say. People zero in on one area of the case, research it to death, and say tha if it is true, or say that if this happened - then conspiracy. But no one can seem to put it all together, at least not yet, IMHO. Pieces here and there, certainly a lot of reasonable doubt, but no smoking gun, no sure explanation. I guess that as more and more documents are released we'll come closer to putting some of the pieces together. Now, on to the next session, "New Leads in the Files and Documents". *Joe Backes* First up was Joe Backes, a New England Irish Catholic who could pass for a Kennedy cousin. Joe, as many of you know has diligently attended and reported on all many, if not all, of the meetings of the ARRB. He's also a really nice guy, in my opinion. We had some good discussions during the Sunday Bus Tour, which he and Tom Jones of Lancer conducted. But more on that later. Joe had more information to report than time available, so he had to stop short, but we were told that copies would be made available. [By the way, I never got those copies, I'll have to check with Lancer on that]. Joe started out discussing the fact that there were missing documents in the NA, which should be there since they have been "released". Some documents that are available have missing pages. Some documents are there more than once, and each set may have different missing pages. Joe also covered a lot of the HSCA files that have been released relating to interviews with the SS agents, mainly in regard to threats received concerning Presidential trips to Miami, Chicago, and Dallas. He also discussed the "problems" he encountered with the ARRB in his efforts to get a copy of the Cooper films. Perhaps Joe could post a summary of all the info he would have covered if he had time. I'll ask him. *Nancy Wertz* Next was Nancy Wertz on "Connections of the Paines". This was very interesting, and Nancy has done a very thorough job of searching mainly FBI and WC documents. This is an area I've had some interest in, especially the DeMorenschildt angle, but have never pursued (so much research, so little time!), so I enjoyed it a lot. Here's some highlights: Nancy focused on the following areas - 1. friends in the Dallas area 2. educational background 3. religious affiliations and activities 4. family history, relatives 5. political beliefs 6. finances 7. Ruth's summer of '63 trip 8. Noshan (?) Island of the Young's 9. Young's social event 10. Nancy commented (and other presenters have made similar comments) that there is lots of seeming trivia, lots of minute detail, in the files. Some of her observations on what she discovered in the files: 1. Ruth was told by the FBI to watch what she said to the press. 2. Some correspondence between her and the FBI is phrased as if she worked for them. 3. She kept lots of written notes, diaries, correspondence, etc. 4. BUT there was NOTHING in her files related to her relationship with the Oswalds. 5. Both DeMorenschildt and Ruth state that there was no contact before or after the Feb. '63 Glover meeting. 6. DeM manuscript found after his death mentioned a lot of stuff about the Paine/Oswald relationship. 7. DeM manuscript indicates that he, DeM, seemed to know a lot about Ruth. 8. DeM manuscript is published in the HSCA Appendix. *Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko* Next was Anne Marie Kuhns-Walko (AMKW). She has accumulated mountains of copies of released files, as you all know. She presented information, based on these files, in three areas: Roger Craig, Rose Cheramie, and the Zapruder Film. Roger Craig - 1. She showed a photo taken near the light pole just downhill from the Stemmon sign, looking North, from Elm street up the GK. I think the right, or East end of the Pergola and Shelter#4 are in the photo. In addition, the ballastrade or low wall that runs from Shelter#4 East along the Elm Street Extension, in front of the TSBD, is visible. There is a crowd of people standing around shortly after the shots were fired. The Hertz sign is in the photo. It shows 12:40. There is a man in a business suit, identified by AMKW as Roger Craig, looking toward this low wall, with his head turned sharply, as if he is looking at something or someone. There is a figure, which looks like the figure of a man walking behind the low wall, East toward Houston Street, toward the area where Roger Craig said he saw Oswald get in the Rambler. 2. Now, I could not tell who this person might be.To me it was just an outline. I couldn't make out any facial features (I was sitting in the 2nd or 3rd row, BTW, but the eyes are not what they used to be ). I don't like to quote people without their permission, but Joe Backes told me later, and Chris Courtwright has posted on the internet, that the person was unidentifiable, that is, his face was not visible. 3. Deanie Richards has posted on the internet that AMKW showed her a picture like this (sometime before the Lancer Meeting), and she (Deanie) could [[ ... ]] identify the person as Oswald. Deanie also mentioned that the photo she saw was the Murray photo (she couldn't say which one). 4. My notes show that I wrote down at the time that it was the Murray photo. 5. Jack White posted on the internet that the photo was NOT the Murray photo. 6. Perhaps it is a photo taken by Murray that none of us has seen before. 7. Another photo, taken with the same approximate orientation,is Bothun #4, which can be found on p. 156 of "Pictures of the Pain" (man I'm glad I bought that book!). According to Trask's text, Bothun took the picture "about a half a minute after the last bullet struck the President". 8. If you look at Bothun #4, and gaze up and slightly to the right of Louis Witt, you see the wall I tried to describe in Item 1, above. You also see what looks like a figure of a person walking East along the Elm St. Extension, behind the low wall. This is very similar to the figure walking behind the wall in the photo that AMKW showed. 9. AMKW stated that the face of the person in the photo she showed had been blurred, implying that it had been manipulated intentionally so the person (Oswald?) couldn't be identified. 10. I really enjoy all aspects of the photographic evidence, so this intrigues me. I wish AMKW would clarify exactly the origin, photographer, etc. of the photo. 11. On a side note, I introduced myself to Anne Marie after the session. We chatted for a few minutes and she said that Deanie had told her I was going to be there. She was very cordial. I asked her a few questions. She stated that she plans to take some time off from he research. She seems to be worn out by all the effort. I'd sure like to have access to her files! Again noting that I did not attend all of the JFK Lancer Meeting, as I did not arrive until Friday afternoon, so I missed the Thursday Sessions (which in- cluded Witnesses, Garrison, Forensic Techniques, Research Journals) and the Friday Morning Session on the Medical Evidence. Therefore I did not hear David Lifton's presentation on new information on his body alteration scenario, specifically information related to how the body got from Dallas to Washington. As a result, when I mentioned that Lifton thought that the body probably was on AF2, it seemed like he had just made that state- ment without any supporting evidence. David has supplied me with a some of the info I missed. I am posting a brief summary here. Perhaps David will provide us with his own, longer version. *David Lifton* Summary of David Lifton's Friday morning presentation at JFK Lancer: 1. Lifton has located the chopper pilot from the special "HMX" squadron (which provides chopper support for the President and the line of succes- sion). 2. The chopper pilot was given a secret briefing where he was told to meet AF1 on the starboard side, and retrieve the body. 3. Lifton has a filmed interview with the chopper pilot, done in early Nov.1996. 4. Lifton showed about 5 minutes of excerpts of the interview. 5. The chopper pilot was surprised to see the coffin being unloaded on the port side. 6. Therefore, if the chopper pilot was waiting on the starboard side, and nothing came off that side, and the coffin was unloaded on the port side (coffin was empty), then the body must not have been on AF1. 7. As described in Lifton's book, BEST EVIDENCE, the body was not in this coffin. Paul O'Conner and Dennis David stated that the body arrived in shipping casket and was in a body bag. Another part of the Medical Evidence session (boy, I'm really sorry I missed it!) was Lifton's presentation of the account of Dr. Leonard Saslow, via another filmed interview, describing his personal knowledge of Dr. Finck complaining, on 11/26 or 11/27/63, how, at the end of the autopsy, his notes were mis- sing, that is, had been stolen. *Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko* New Information From The Files and Documents, continued. The next part of Anne Marie Kuhns-Walko's (AMKW) presentation concerned Rose Cheramie: 1. Some documents from the Garrison files show that Cheramie stated while she was in the hospital that she knew both Ruby and Oswald. 2. FBI and Louisiana records show an instance of where her information on drug dealers was considered good information by those authorities [supports her credibility]. 3. AMKW believes that Garrison would have gotten a conviction if there had not been leaks. AMKW's next part was on the Zapruder film: 1. She saw the Zapruder film at the NA in Summer 1994. 2. It broke while she was viewing it and is now being restored and is unavailable. 3. I think she said that this "version" of the Z film was from the FBI Field Office files. 4. It was much longer, it was clear, no blurs, no scratches. 5. Before she gave it back to them she made a photocopy of the film on the spool and the box it was in. The film on the spool appears to fill the spool, which would indicate that it is, in fact, longer than the Z film that we are all used to seeing. 6. Some HSCA documents mention splices, the SS version, a B/W 16mm unslit film. 7. Los Alamos National Laboratory apparently has or had a copy of the "original". 8. I am a little confused on this, but I believe AMKW said that there are HSCA documents that discuss the Nix film, or that the Nix film itself is part of the HSCA files, but anyway, there is supposedly a shooter visible in frame 219 "in the classic military firing position". 9. AMKW has B/W slides of about 40 frames of Nix. AMKW's next part was concerning LHO As Informant: 1. I think AMKW said that copies of the Hosty note were put in the files, implying that this was done after the fact. 2. William Walters (ex-FBI agent) stated he had seen records in files that LHO was an informant. 3. Records show that FBI did interview LHO upon his return to the US from Soviet Union. 4. Angleton wanted to make sure that McCone and Helms both answered WC questions the same. So he told both of them to say that LHO was not a CIA agent, and the CIA had no evidence of any conspiracy. 5. Priscilla McMillan's application for employment to CIA in 1957 is in files. *Martin Shackelford* Next up was Martin Shackelford. He gave a brief rundown of some things he has found in the files, in the areas of: 1. info on LHO's Soviet activities 2. other LHO connecitons 3. RFK made a secret trip to Mexico City in 1964 to check into LHO's visit there. 4. WC never saw any Army files on LHO. 5. DeMorenshildt and a Russian agent had a meeting with VP LBJ in 1963. 6. Seven sets of autopsy photos were made. Question & Answer Session: 1. Lifton asked AMKW if she would document in detail the situation related to the Z film. 2. She said she has been working with Noel Twyman on this and it will be in his book. 3. Lifton asked Nancy Wertz if Michael Paine knew the rifle was in the blanket. 4. Wertz said she didn't interview Michael Paine. 5. Lifton said that his interview with Michael Paine was very confusing. Debra Conway introduced Phyllis Bartlett in the audience. She was the telephone operator at Parkland on duty Nov. 22 and 24. Cecil N. Jones 102454.1677@compuserve.com December 1996 --------------------------- end ------------------------------